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Whoa! Political attention? To my little city?
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Acend
Will date your daughter


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 3051
Location: Houston, TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my problem with Deus' comments are what I feel is a big problem with our system now. People feel they have the RIGHT to welfare, or public services provided to them by the government. I'm sorry but no, you do NOT have the right to medical care, you do NOT have the right to a place to live or food. You want that then go work for it and pay for it. Can't afford housing where you live? (I being a licensed loan officer in about 20 states can see a huge difference in housing prices) Then MOVE. There are many other places you can go where the price of living is lower. Houston for example has a very low cost of living and very low unemployment. We're also one of the few places where "manufacturing" jobs are still around (somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all US petroleum products are made here) These are jobs that are A) plentiful B) pay well and C) many require just a high school diploma.

This mentality that the government should provide cradle to grave is an insidious thought that needs to start being taken away.

He's offended that we (actually scratch that I'll say I since I don't want to speak for anyone else), that I, feel my tax dollars, ESPECIALLY federal, should be spent on nothing outside of defense, whether that be national via the military, or domestic "keeping the peace" through national guards, police, etc.

Again I would point people in need of assistance or "welfare" towards their family and/or private charity organizations.

I have a lot more to say about this but if the other side is not here or does not wish to have a civilized and intelligent debate (I'm not calling you stupid or uncivilized I'm just pointing out you don't want to debate and if you do we should keep it as such) then I will try to keep myself from responding in this thread after this comment.
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LiQuid!
fasta dan a muddafucka!


Joined: 07 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I'm all pro welfare or anything, but you really have to realize that minimum wage or low/no skill work pays absolute shit. I remember watching that episode of that 30 Day show with the guy from Super Size Me where him and his wife worked minimum wage jobs and had to live in a roach motel with barely any furniture. And they didn't even factor in kids into the equation. I'm sure it was glamourized to high hell, but it's still a viable argument. You just can't sustain a decent living wage with health care out of high school for the most part.
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Strategos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, plus hotels are always more expensive than cheap housing. If they'd put time into finding a cheap apartment....

Then again, I suppose you can't find an apartment for just 30 days too easily.
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Sethimothy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll approuch Deus's comments further in a bit, because his statement is well thought out and I want to give it some due respect and process... but mostly, I just want to say that I appreciate him coming back and explaining his position. I was mostly just thrown off by his choice of words in the second sentence of the original post, and I do feel that one of the issues with Section 8 is that it is spent too frivolously. In fact, I would even go so far as to argue that Section 8 funding goes forward to enable some landlords to ask a certain price for their meager lodgings, and to a notable extent Section 8 will match them without question.
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Strategos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deus wrote:
A scientologist? Heh.

None of the above anyways. No self-righteousness here. None of that bs. Maybe a few sprinkles of fancy words. That's all. Do notice that beyond all I've said, I included: "...or perhaps simply the particular places you live in..."
If you call them fancy words, you should never use them to make any points. To start with, it means that there will be some people who won't be able to understand them - people that won't understand the point - and it will look to many others like you're trying to back up a point by using unnecessarily complex wording rather than any solid ground.

Quote:

I don't know where this may be. You could be getting the short straw badly as such.


Where I am is where L.A. County prefers to dump undesirables from downtown, Compton, etc. It's also got the max security state prison, so we get a lot of the less than lovely in so that they're closer to their relatives in jail.
Quote:

However, for example, I'm from NYC, where the shittiest neighborhoods are getting small-time facade-ONLY renovations and upping the renting price by upwards of 60%+ (google it). Good luck finding a studio apartment for less than $1500 monthly, IN Harlem, nevermind the more 'prestigious' neighborhoods. Pretty much, unless you want to live in the infamous yet affordable and often-rapped-about South Bronx, you're not gonna be able to make ends meet. Futhermore, all the emotionally-poor single mothers out there whose 'baby daddies' left them for broke... you MUST sympathize with them. Most of them are strong-headed independent individuals who refused to abort their child and instead chose to keep their heads up and deal with the circumstances at hand. What do you want them to do... move out of town so the more well-off can move in? Just an example.


Unless you want to live in Lake Los Angeles (where I grew up, and one of the worst places in Los Angeles. They say Palmdale is the methamphetamine capital of California. What they don't know is that while we may use the most here, where I come from is where it came from), the same applies. There are no houses to rent out here below 2k per month. As for those whose baby's daddies left 'em... Look, women, here's a tip: Wedlock. It is their fault, and while I sympathize entirely, that's an obvious mistake; one I'll not pay them for. I've a friend whose father left him and his mother; they do just fine. I've a friend whose father died when he was three, and his mother a poor immigrant, no less. They do just fine with no aid as well. It's the effort you put in, not how little you get fucked.
Don't paint me as elitist on this. I don't want them to move out so the more wealthy can move in: I want them to move out because if they don't, I'm fucking supporting their having housing more expensive than mine. It's called indignity, dammit, and if there's cheaper housing for those living off of the dole, give it to them, because I pay the dole, and if I'm worse off for not being on it, there's too much damned dole.

Quote:

Another random example: Katrina-devastated residents. You know how many realtors are hungry for buying these people out only to fix and up the prices? Should these devastated people, in essence, now move and find Section 8 elsewhere? Hm. I dunno.


Well, I'm fine with Section 8 for those who are trying to do themselves better. I know that if I was trying as hard as I could give and still getting fucked, I'd want the aid, and so I am willing to support that much. The issue is that there are too many people who take advantage of this system and turn it to where it leaves those I'm helping better than myself. I don't roll with that. It's gotten to a point, admittedly, where I want the system reformed with better priorities (getting them cheap housing. Not the ungodly expensive housing you get out here) or abolished entirely, in that order. I won't continue to take this bullshit.

Quote:

Anyways, I'm trying to see this issue from both sides, which is why I earlier said you could be getting the short straw which would suck in your case/s. But for many people Section 8 is not "cheating the system" or taking advantage of a good thing, it's simply a way of living their EVERY DAY lives, you know? If you're upset where you live at, think of all the people TOO POOR to even afford Section 8. That's just horrible.


Short straw? No, I'm getting raped by the people with the short straw. I'd say that's worse. Those ones aren't the ones I'm complaining about. The ones you describe are the ones that have the dignity to accept that they should leave the smallest imprint they can, and continue to seek cheap housing to use their Section 8 on, as compared to expensive housing so use it on. The ones that don't take advantage of it, in fact, wouldn't be effected by the reforms I prescribe. They would just see more people like them, if no more willingly.

Quote:

Anyways, I don't even know why I jumped into this topic especially given it's my first post in quite some time. I'm not political and in the end these things are usually beyond my control -- although that kind of mentality probably keeps these things beyond my control.


Look, just stick around. We're not heavily populated here, and you've proven that you're an intelligent enough person. If you don't stay, I'll have to... well, I'm not a convicted rapist for nothing....

Quote:

All I can say is, beyond apologizing for such a lengthy post, if in your section of the country you feel this strongly about it, then go do something. Physically do something. Fcuk Rudy, don't wait for no elections, start harassing your representatives, senators, city council-members, and so forth NOW... no? Lastly, shouldn't you be more upset with the root of the reasons why you wouldn't want to live anywhere else other than in Section 8 neighborhoods? Just a thought. Just a thought.
Those who can't handle a long post were long gone before you wrote that. We'll be fine. Oh, we do feel strongly about it. That's why the entire two cities (We're our own little metropolis!) have been pitching bitches for a few years about this. The problem has recently grown to new proportions Anyhow, city council can't do jack, nor can the state or county. This is a federal system, and local problems like this are not likely to be resolved by them. We've been after our senators and reps over this of course, but they don't really care enough: We're only a small bit of the vote (just 1/60th, approximately), already too moderate (that's right, not even conservative - just too moderate for the dems in power) as a locale for them to worry over, and to top it off, they don't have to deal with the issue, so they don't care. They're in it for personal power, and we're not a threat to theirs yet.
Quote:

If you really wanna debate this with me, PM me by all means, we can shoot it up in AIM or some shˇt. Then talk about games and the girlies and whatnot. :]

Nothing but respect, stay up, peace out.


Forums are made for debates. PMs and AIM are for private spats. This allows everyone to follow, and get their two cents in, and to build off of one another. It's a better way to do things.
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Strategos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and to Sethi: if you're replying in depth, pick it up! I beat you to it!
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VsPluckyDuck
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDIT: You know what, I'm not even going to bother.

I'll just get trolled for being a horrible ignorant Canadian commie-socialist-liberal who doesn't know a good thing and should just go die because I don't cling to the fruits of my labours the way a Good American does.

Have fun, guys.
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Phil
Bloody persistant


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VsPluckyDuck wrote:
EDIT: You know what, I'm not even going to bother.

I'll just get trolled for being a horrible ignorant Canadian commie-socialist-liberal who doesn't know a good thing and should just go die because I don't cling to the fruits of my labours the way a Good American does.

Have fun, guys.


Hush. The Americans are speaking

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Strategos
a$$


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VsPluckyDuck wrote:
EDIT: You know what, I'm not even going to bother.

I'll just get trolled for being a horrible ignorant Canadian commie-socialist-liberal who doesn't know a good thing and should just go die because I don't cling to the fruits of my labours the way a Good American does.

Have fun, guys.


While I liked your comment, I admit that I was planning on making a comment about the Canadian part. Still, it wouldn't have been serious.

So, uh... Put it back?
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Sethimothy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strategos wrote:
Oh, and to Sethi: if you're replying in depth, pick it up! I beat you to it!


Yeah... you did. T_T

And re: Plucky's comment: way to be cowardly by attacking yourself in the vein of how you assume you/your views will be attacked, as opposed to actually just coming out and stating your views. I'm not going to lie, it upset me greatly, perhaps more than I should allow a simple internet comment to.
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Idin Leis
McCoy fucked me so hard


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martyr wrote:


Hush. The Americans are speaking



I am going to have to ask you not to act that way to other members of this forum. There is no reason for it. You will most likely get a warning level for this kind of behavior.

I am no moderator but I am going to report/pm a moderator on how you have been acting disrespectful towards users from other countries.
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Phil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I just got this user complaint from Idin.

Quote:
Excuse me,

http://www.rpgland.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28059#28059

I am reporting behavior that is unsavory to my liking.

Please deal with this post accordingly.

Thanks,

Idin Leis


The poster in question has been banned. That is all.
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J.L.Jones
I'd like to see this


Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VsPluckyDuck wrote:
EDIT: You know what, I'm not even going to bother.

I'll just get trolled for being a horrible ignorant Canadian commie-socialist-liberal who doesn't know a good thing and should just go die because I don't cling to the fruits of my labours the way a Good American does.

Have fun, guys.



If you don't get it, Google it.
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Deus



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Strategos!
Cheers

For the record, I don't live in Section 8 housing, never have. I don't receive government support, never have. I just sympathize with those in Section 8; or at least the persons I know. They're not trying to cheat the system or anything, just trying to get their feet on stable ground for whatever time being. You've got to respect that — or at least I do.

Re: Fancy words -- I didn't use them to be fancy, rather I labeled them "fancy" in response to being called a scientologist. Which was funny.
I can only assume I was called one due to the mention of 'synthetic thinking.' Why else?


Well, I'm a notorious lurker... Cactuar Run

[/emoticon-trigger-happy]
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Strategos
a$$


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deus wrote:
Well said, Strategos!
Cheers
<snip>

Well, I'm a notorious lurker... Cactuar Run

[/emoticon-trigger-happy]


That's the difference! While you've lurked, I've practiced.
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Acend
Will date your daughter


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Removed since I placed a much more thoughtful post below.
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Acend
Will date your daughter


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deus wrote:
However, for example, I'm from NYC, where the shittiest neighborhoods are getting small-time facade-ONLY renovations and upping the renting price by upwards of 60%+ (google it). Good luck finding a studio apartment for less than $1500 monthly, IN Harlem, never mind the more 'prestigious' neighborhoods. Pretty much, unless you want to live in the infamous yet affordable and often-rapped-about South Bronx, you're not gonna be able to make ends meet.


This is Economics 101, as demand increases and supply decreases prices increase. Very simple market forces at work.

Deus wrote:
Furthermore, all the emotionally-poor single mothers out there whose 'baby daddies' left them for broke... you MUST sympathize with them. Most of them are strong-headed independent individuals who refused to abort their child and instead chose to keep their heads up and deal with the circumstances at hand. What do you want them to do... move out of town so the more well-off can move in?
.

Actually, no, I don not have to sympathize with her. Why? Because she’s in her position based on her own life choices. I am strongly against abortion but there are many ways to have a child without aborting them, she should have picked one of them such as Contraception. ‘But what if she can’t afford it?’ Well then there is abstinence. ‘But what if she’s impregnated through rape!?’ Well in the unlikely event that this happens there is hopefully her family who can help her out. There isn’t you say? Well then there is adoption. If she decides to keep the child that is her right to do so but I should NOT have to pay for her poor life choices through my taxes. If she cannot support herself and a child, and has no help from family then unfortunately she needs to deal with the consequences.

Deus wrote:
Another random example: Katrina-devastated residents. You know how many realtors are hungry for buying these people out only to fix and up the prices? Should these devastated people, in essence, now move and find Section 8 elsewhere?


I live in Houston, I know a bit about the Katrina issues, especially those affected in LA and New Orleans because of this. After Katrina Houston’s population increased the same as the entire population of Memphis, TN overnight. These people have decided to stay and make Houston their home. Many of them lived in New Orleans and now live here. What happens to a local market when you have a mass exodus like this, for whatever reason? Again I point you back to Economics 101. As supply increases, do to more houses/land being on sale with people moving, and demand decreases, because less people want to move to this area now, prices will decrease. Nothing insidious here it is just the natural market forces at work. I would like to also mention that no one can force these people to sell it is again them exercising their free will and by doing so the need to be prepared for any consequences their actions have. And no, these people should not move and find section 8 housing, because section 8 housing should not exist.

Deus wrote:
But for many people Section 8 is not "cheating the system" or taking advantage of a good thing, it's simply a way of living their EVERY DAY lives, you know? If you're upset where you live at, think of all the people TOO POOR to even afford Section 8. That's just horrible.


Yes I think this is horrible, and I am not an unfeeling sympathetic person, far far from it. I just disagree and feel it is morally and ethically reprehensible that the government methodically STEALS money from people to give to others they feel needs it more. If I where to see someone in need of help and wish to help them would I have the right to mug you at the point of a gun take your money to give to those people? No I would not. I also think most would agree this is wrong. This is what the government does with any welfare system. That is not what the US government was set up to do and the federal government does NOT have the right legally, ethically, or any other way to do this.

Deus wrote:
Nothing but respect, stay up, peace out.


Deus I want to thank you first for the healthy political and social debate you’re helping to foster here.

I would like to leave people with one final word from myself. I know my answers to many of these questions may have me coming off as an unfeeling prick who hates the poor and feels people deserve what they get. This is not the case, I am a very caring person who has always been active in charities and has volunteered for 5 years at a food pantry helping people that cannot, for whatever reason, make ends meat for the month. Maybe they where injured at work, maybe they are currently unemployed and can’t find a job right now. My heart goes out to these people, and I have the time and means to help them some so I do. Some people may take this as proof that these programs should exist. To me this shows that private charities and caring and giving people can help these people out. Government sponsored or “social” welfare as it is currently being implemented in the grand scheme is a fairly new thing and you know what? Before it existed there where still charities, people where still, by and large, taken care of. The problem with our current system is that instead of help people begin to feel it is their right or they somehow deserve this. Then they become dependent to the point of being unable to survive without the government. This scares me so much and it makes me think how sad our founding fathers would be to see what their people have come to when they where willing to put their life, liberty, wealth, and reputation, everything they had on the line to stand up to an overly oppressive government and taxes, which would be considered nothing compared to today’s standards.

I hope that my words have given you something to think about and if you disagree that is fine, I am just glad for a healthy intellectual debate.
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timrpgland
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rudy is a batty boy
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LiQuid!
fasta dan a muddafucka!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holy shit acend, i dunno what that was all about but u guts are doin a good job makin me never wan to come here anymore..
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Acend
Will date your daughter


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the worst part? I had to write 65% of that twice. Because my browser decided to die on me. heh, read it sometime when you're sober. It will do you good.
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