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What's the hardest battle in RPG history?
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timrpgland
Founder, Est. 1999


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never played the second one. Is it really that bad?
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NR
The Great White Bear of Sunflower Street


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which second one? We didn't technically get Romancing SaGa 2 in the US if that's what you mean. If you mean SaGa Frontier 2, yes, it's THAT hard. And since the recommendation was "two SaGa games," give Romancing SaGa and/or Unlimited Saga a whirl while you're at it. It's okay if you come home without a ballsack--most of us did.
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Cloudcent
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlimited Saga. Oh, how i loathe the!
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timrpgland
Founder, Est. 1999


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NR wrote:
Which second one? We didn't technically get Romancing SaGa 2 in the US if that's what you mean. If you mean SaGa Frontier 2, yes, it's THAT hard. And since the recommendation was "two SaGa games," give Romancing SaGa and/or Unlimited Saga a whirl while you're at it. It's okay if you come home without a ballsack--most of us did.


I was talking about SaGa Frontier 2. As far as Romancing Saga goes, I did enjoy emulating #3 with the translation and it was kind of challenging. Most of the time, it's just time consuming. I guess if that's challenging? I stayed away from Unlimited SaGa from the reviews I read. I also haven't tryed Minstrel Song yet.

So I'll have to give SaGa Frontier 2, Unlimited SaGa and RS: Minstrel Song a try before I can officially call you guys weak? Wink Will do Laughing

Go and play through the NES Ninja Gaiden series (no savestate) and tell me those RPGs are challenging. Smile
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NR
The Great White Bear of Sunflower Street


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 7614
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timrpgland wrote:
As far as Romancing Saga goes, I did enjoy emulating #3 with the translation and it was kind of challenging. Most of the time, it's just time consuming. I guess if that's challenging?

I've never played 3. I wouldn't know. I was talkin' bout Minstrel Song, which was simply called "Romancing SaGa" here.

timrpgland wrote:
Go and play through the NES Ninja Gaiden series (no savestate) and tell me those RPGs are challenging. Smile

*patpat*
No one said other games weren't hard.
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timrpgland
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers. When I think of really challenging games, (yes, I know, this is about rpgs) RPGs don't pop in til waaay down the list. Which is a shame really but for most it's just a matter of spending time to increase your characters if you can't quite do it yet. If the game doesn't have a standard leveling system like some of those SaGa games (and several others) then the challenge itself is increased but most just require some time dedication which doesn't equate to a difficult game, just time consuming. If skill is involved with the battles then all the better.
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Q
Ass sorcerer


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timrpgland wrote:
I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers. When I think of really challenging games, (yes, I know, this is about rpgs) RPGs don't pop in til waaay down the list. Which is a shame really but for most it's just a matter of spending time to increase your characters if you can't quite do it yet. If the game doesn't have a standard leveling system like some of those SaGa games (and several others) then the challenge itself is increased but most just require some time dedication which doesn't equate to a difficult game, just time consuming. If skill is involved with the battles then all the better.


wow I totally agree with you that Tim, the more time you put into a game leveling the easier it gets for sure. Sometimes it's neccessary.
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randar23rhenn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yah I agree that as a whole the RPG genre is not high on my difficulty ranking list, but there are certain series that certainly delve into the player's ability- SaGa was mentioned, the SMT series is another obvious one, especially the main games... DDS watered it down, but was still much more difficult than the average RPG, and the SMT series at a whole manages to force the player to strategize for weaknesses and resistances
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NR
The Great White Bear of Sunflower Street


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But even in DDS, you can just go do 30-45 minutes of leveling and refight the same boss that killed you, and it'll be a totally different fight. That's where games like Lunar SSSC, SaGa, and I think Valkyrie Profile are different than the norm.
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randar23rhenn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yah levelling does help, but then that comes in the genre, its almost a given
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NR
The Great White Bear of Sunflower Street


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

randar23rhenn wrote:
yah levelling does help, but then that comes in the genre, its almost a given

Right. You just talked yourself in a circle.
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randar23rhenn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

true enough, i admit defeat on this one, but wait till next time
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Cloudcent
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NR wrote:
But even in DDS, you can just go do 30-45 minutes of leveling and refight the same boss that killed you, and it'll be a totally different fight. That's where games like Lunar SSSC, SaGa, and I think Valkyrie Profile are different than the norm.


I'd say Chrono Cross could be added to this. Not that i had a particularly hard time with it(since you can run from any fight), but you really can't power level your party at all. you gain stats mostly when you defeat a boss, with a few stray strength and hit points picked up the first time you fight a new monster. I've seen some people have particularly hard times defeating certain bosses even early in the game due to not properly preparing(purchasing a fair amount of consumable elements, for instance).

I watched the Dwarf Tank repeatedly hand my friend his ass to the point where I believe he had to restart the game from scratch, since he was completely out of consumable items to heal before the fight, and he couldn't go back to the main land until the task was accomplished.
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Duke Otterland
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in DDS, I found victory to be far more dependent on skills than levels (unless you mean acquiring new skills from Mantras as in "leveling").
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Strategos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The final boss in Dragon Quest II has it for me hands down, but I haven't played that since I was an RPG nooblet, so that may have something to do with it. I think the final boss on D.Q. I is second, then my memory begins to fail me about previous RPG experiences that I actually beat. Blehg. Does shock therapy help memory problems too? Gosh. One day shock therapy will cure brain cancer, testicular cancer, and lung cancer, and I will not be surprised.
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jfreedan



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

timrpgland wrote:
I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers. When I think of really challenging games, (yes, I know, this is about rpgs) RPGs don't pop in til waaay down the list. Which is a shame really but for most it's just a matter of spending time to increase your characters if you can't quite do it yet. If the game doesn't have a standard leveling system like some of those SaGa games (and several others) then the challenge itself is increased but most just require some time dedication which doesn't equate to a difficult game, just time consuming. If skill is involved with the battles then all the better.


You don't know what you are talking about.
That is why the other guy told you to play the SaGa games.

LEVELING UP DOESN'T WORK, CAUSE IT HAS NO LEVELS!

SaGa games have a unique character advancement system where attribute bonus are gained depending on how much damage characters take, how much BP they consume, and what skills they use. The equipped items may also play a role in stat bonus.

Also, it is impossible to fight "easy" enemies because there is a battle count-- every time you enter a battle, this (invisible) meter goes up. Each new battle rank = stronger enemies.

So basically, as your characters grow stronger, so do the enemies. No matter where in the level you are. Even the first dungeon areas you enter in the game will spawn tough enemies to fight you. And if a character loses all their Life points, they are perma-dead and you cannot generally get them back (exception in Romancing SaGa:MS-- but you could only rez 1 character at the cost of another character's life). This means you need to be able to predict what characters are going to die in the next turn and instantly rez them before enemies can attack them again-- thus taking away 1-2 LP.

However, games series such as the Shin Megami Tensei (and spinoffs, such as Persona and Digital Devil Saga) are probably the most difficult RPGs around, since regardless of how strong your characters are, they can easily get annhilated in a single round if you aren't paying attention. The designers like to give regular monsters instant kill spells; many of which can hit your whole party.

There is other RPG games which dont have leveling systems, and the only way for the character(s) to gain powers is through powerups. Adventure RPGs usuallly use this method such as, Zelda1+3, Alundra and the Soul Blader trilogy (Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma).

Additionally, most console RPG games made during the 90s have what is called a "bonus dungeon", which is usually available after the game has been defeated. Inside these dungeons are the toughest enemies and bosses in the game.

Lufia II 'Ancient Dungeon' is arguably the best known because characters cannot bring in the best equipment and their levels are reset to lv1.

Star Ocean 2 also has a challenging bonus dungeon, as do the Tales of Phantasia/Destiny games.

And please dont get me started on the tactical RPG genre with games such as Disgaea, Phantom Brave, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Makai Kingdom or the Front Mission series. Most of the regular battles in these games are tougher than the bosses are, although FF Tactics is probably the easiest all-around (unless you go into the bonus dungeon and try to get the ultimate summon spell Zodiac-- that challenge ranks up there.)

I still cant believe you compared Ninja Gaiden (of the platformer genre) to console RPG games. They have totally different gameplay and usually require different skills (fast-twitch reflexes have no impact whatsoever in a turn based game requiring immense spatial reasoning).

You are basically comparing Soccer to Chess.

Because games requiring precision hand-eye coordination and fast reflexes do not tend to have abstract enemy AI systems which demand high cognitive, logical-mathematical abilities (ie synchronizing your character's movements together to defend against and attack a boss that is capable of annhilating your party in 1 turn if you do not know when and what to use at each precise turn.)

This is the easiest form of the final boss of Romancing SaGa:MS

Phase 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt5O3xHae_E

This first battle is difficult because he will block any skill you had used on certain bosses previously in the game, and he has a chance of blocking any new skills you use on him in this battle more than once. If any character dies, he will begin trying to ressurect them as a zombie under his control, and you cant get that chara back unless they die and then you quickly rez them before he does. This means you generally need to rez them in the same round they died in, cause even your fastest chara may not beat Saruin to the rez.

This means you have to predict who is gonna die that round, and WHEN they are going to die, so they can be rezzed rather than healed.

Phase 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHhir3Q8OxU&mode=related&search=

For those unfamilar with the game, basically the towers weaken all attacks from both the boss and party members, but attacking the boss knocks down a tower. So you have to attack the boss strategically so you knock down enough towers to unleash big damage on him, but preferably not enough for him to kill your own party members.

Keep in mind, this is the easiest form of him. There is ten more forms where he has more HP and more powerful attacks.

You would be wise to pick up a copy of Raph Koster's "A Theory of Fun" and read Chapter Six. Just because a game requires different skills does not mean only certain genres of games are challenging and others are not.
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timrpgland
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, obviously you didn't read the whole post where I noted that. The fact of the matter is that most RPGs simply require more time dedication rather than actually being difficult. There are exceptions to almost every rule of course and I have noted those exceptions. Don't get you started on tactical rpgs? Why?

Quote:
(unless you go into the bonus dungeon and try to get the ultimate summon spell Zodiac-- that challenge ranks up there.)

No it doesn't.

I guess it's a matter of skill set. I find that strategy involved in fighting battles and the time taken to tweak your party to maximum efficiency is usually not as difficult as say a ninja gaiden game like noted. Or completing a metal slug game with no continues. Having been playing the genre for a long time I only once in a while run into something frustrating which can be alleviated by either dedicating more time to building my characters, getting lucky or changing the strategy involved.

Thanks for posting and welcome to RPGLAND!
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Sethimothy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that tl;dr post did he just suggest Makai Kingdom was difficult? If so, I laugh at him. I beat the game twice in under 30 hours. That game is to diffuclt what Penis is to Vagina.

For that matter, the only thing difficult about Phantom Brave is when you'd be on a slippery tileset and you'd try to get your character to go a specific place and it would take 18 tries. You'd beat the game, and then you'd start unlocking bonus battles, and you'd probably die... so you skilled up some more, and it was all good.

Also, while I enjoyed getting to watch Saruin die again (with my favorite quote from Gray ("God Killer? I could live with that.") the player had a surprising lack of combos... with that crappy technique he'll never be able to take on the ultimate version of Saruin.
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jfreedan



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is really easy to talk smack on the internet.

Back up your words :p

Edit: You know what? I'm not done yet, because you didnt even respond to the point my post made-- RPGs require a DIFFERENT kind of skill than a platformer does. The brain works in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT way when you are playing these different games.

So instead of responding to this point, you decided to regurgitate the "lol this game was so easy" bit that is extremely common among people who like to exaggerate about their gaming skills.

I mean, lets take a look at what you posted about FF Tactics:

Quote:
I guess it's a matter of skill set. I find that strategy involved in fighting battles and the time taken to tweak your party to maximum efficiency is usually not as difficult as say a ninja gaiden game like noted. Or completing a metal slug game with no continues. Having been playing the genre for a long time I only once in a while run into something frustrating which can be alleviated by either dedicating more time to building my characters, getting lucky or changing the strategy involved.


Well gee golly wiz Bat-Man, do you think it is just totally obvious that if you go to fight this boss with x items and x classes with x skills that your Summoner can survive the Zodiac spell so they can learn it? Does a tutorial spawn on the screen and say "Hey player, you need to do this to learn the spell"?

RPGs are thinking games. You are suggesting there is no skill involved in evaulating your assets, your enemies assets and then devising strategies to overcome your enemy? Mentally exploring logical routes of action is not a challenge?

You know what?

The AI in both Ninja Gaiden and Metal Slug is a hell of a lot more predictable than the AI of enemies in FF Tactics. Expecially when you consider the enemies in Tactics not only have more than 1 attack method, but they can manuever around the game board in more directions than left and right.

If you want to talk about games where overcoming the enemy merely means having "dedication" (ie re-playing each level hundreds of times until you can predict where every enemy is gonna appear and what patterns the boss has), platformers are the games you are talking about buddy.

I'm surprised. I do a google for "difficult boss battles in console RPGs" because I'm doing research for a game project I'm working on, and I end up finding the biggest pile of console RPG gaming ignorance next to Game Pro.

Again, I cannot believe you are comparing the gameplay of turn-based games to platformers.

You don't happen to work for Game Pro, do you?

PSS: Do more combos on Saruin FS0?? Why? :p My first playthrough my skills and items were not so grand so I relied on vortexes to beat him, but on my second there wasnt any need to. I was more concerned with showing off the skills for the video than downing the weakest version in a couple turns, thus skipping Saruin's amusing voice files (I ended up missing the last voice file anyway because of OD, but meh).
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NR
The Great White Bear of Sunflower Street


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfreedan wrote:
You don't happen to work for Game Pro, do you?

I do.
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